Wikipedia:Featured Article Candidates - Nominations - Little Moreton Hall - Comments By ClemRutter 3

Comments By ClemRutter 3

• Comments by ClemRutter

General Comments House and grounds

1. The most prominent feature of the grounds is the moat and island- yet this is not discussed in the Gardens and Estate subsection. Instead it is under house. Strongly feel the para

   The house stands on an island surrounded by a 33-foot (10 m) wide moat, which was probably dug in the 13th or 14th century to enclose an earlier building on the site. There is no evidence that the moat served any defensive purpose, and as with many other moated sites it was probably intended as a status symbol. A sandstone bridge leads to a gate house in the three-storey south range.

   should be moved to Gardens and Estate. This gap in the text should be filled with

   The gate house in the three-storey south range is approached over a sandstone bridge that crosses the ornamental moat.

   (more later).

   • I can't agree with that, as the house is built on the island and is only accessible via a bridge across the moat, which is therefore an important aspect of the house's topology. But I'll be interested to hear what MarchOrDie thinks. George Ponderevo (talk) 15:23, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

2. The opening sentence has no merit- in fact is a filler. In more detail:

   The 100-year construction of Little Moreton Hall spanned the period of the pre-Reformation, post-Reformation, Elizabethan, pre-Renaissance and Renaissance, but except for some Renaissance decoration such as the motifs on the gatehouse, and Elizabethan fireplaces, the house is resolutely medieval in design.

3. There is no such concept or architectural periods as pre-Reformation or post-Reformation architecture. Yarwood uses the time Periods- perpendicular Gothic 1375-1509/ Tudor 1509-1603/ Stuart 1603-1660/ Restoration Stuart 1660-1774.(Yarwood|1967|p=vii|ps=) Indeed the Renaissance preceded the English Reformation. The hall itself fell almost entirely within the Tudor period

   Nonsense. Malleus Fatuorum 05:01, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

   Like why? Seriously have you a reference that uses pre-Reformation or post-Reformation architecture for architecture, roughly I date Renaissance as 1501 -1625, and the English Reformation from about 1529/1531? --ClemRutter (talk) 13:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

   If you re-read that bit you'll see that it's talking about historical periods, not architectural styles, and I wouldn't have added that to the article if I didn't have a good source for it, Nikolaus Pevsner no less. I quote: "So there is pre-Reformation and post-Reformation work here, Henry VII and Elizabeth, pre-Renaissance and post-Renaissance". Note specifically his use of the term "work", which includes details such as the decorative motifs on the exterior timber framing. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:37, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

4. However it is true that the house is resolutely medieval in design.
5. I have considered what should replace the first part of the sentence and consider the strongest solution is to omit the fluff and start with

The house is resolutely medieval in design.

No. Part of the house's interest is that it was built over a period of 100 years, and thus contains elements of many architectural styles, ranging from medieval to Elizabethan. Malleus Fatuorum 05:09, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

What we are both trying to say is that: LHM is important because was built over the 100 year period that saw a change in the use and and functioning of a house. The house is resolutely medieval in design, but with the century was modified to reflect the changing fashions and styles, it spans the transition. The period of its construction is loosely described as Tudor-but during that period society moved from church dominated to secular, the society changed from feudal to one of rural commerce with yeoman farmers:the open hearth great hall with screens and solar became irrelevant to the lifestyle of the yeoman family, who aped the changes in the aristocracy and a new model emerged. Existing structures were modified to accommodate the new life style and tastes. LHM is one of perhaps 10 surviving houses of this period and notable for its half-timbered construction.(Yarwood|1967|p=167|ps=)at a time when timber was becoming scarce and expensive. Later Tudor houses have become referred to as Elizabethan, and feature a long gallery as a social feature rather than the great hall. LMH displays how a long gallery could be tacked onto an existing structure even at the expense of distorting the whole frame. But, that is inelegant- lacking in references and needs to be thought out properly.

Part of the house's interest is that it was built over a period of 100 years, and thus contains elements of many architectural styles, ranging from medieval to Elizabethan is better wording than the cod theory attributed to (Fedden|Joekes|1984). There is no reason why someone couldn 't pen a line like:The house is resolutely medieval in design though part of the house's interest is that it was built over a period of 100 years, and thus contains elements of many architectural styles, ranging from medieval to Elizabethan. Circle squared. --ClemRutter (talk) 13:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

1. I would like to include a description of what that means using data from (Hartwell|2002|p=6) where she describes the Great Hall at Chethams and Baguley Hall. What is critical here is whether the great hall had a fireplace (modern idea)- or still used the medieval open heath in the centre of the hall with louvres leading to a roof lantern. We have two interesting words here to describe features of the screens passage- the spere (a screen) and or the more modern spere truss construction a truss in the roof frame at with two free standing posts- fixed partitions at each end and the moveable spere screen suspended in between. When describing a great hall I think we also need to talk about the buttery, pantry and kitchen- and how at this time its function was changing from a general purpose room where the household (that meant servants and family) ate and some of the servants would sleep. The social change however to be elucidated in the History section not here. (Yarwood|1956|p=65-99|ps=) describes much in the Tudor chapter. LMH mention on p=76.

   The article already explains that the Great Hall would likely have had rush-covered earth floors and a central hearth, not a fireplace. Malleus Fatuorum 05:09, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes- how clever. You do miss things like that when you are reading from top to bottom. --ClemRutter (talk) 13:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

But where would you have expected to find information about the Great Hall other than in the section about the Great Hall? George Ponderevo (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

1. As (Yarwood|1967|p=167-169|ps=) explains. The proportion of half timberwork was smaller than in the middle ages due to hundreds of years of harvesting trees and not replanting. But this was not true in Cheshire due to an absence of good building stone- I think this should be written into the article somewhere (missing reference for that). I think what I am saying is that we need to give a more 'Ẃhy answers'

(more follows tomorrow)--ClemRutter (talk) 03:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

1. Diagonal oak beams --> Diagonal oak braces per glossary (Hartwell|2002|p=350)
2. garderobes wlink needed

   Garderobe is already wikilinked on the first occurrence of the term. George Ponderevo (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Ground floor

1. wood-panelling and screens passage could be wlinked- redirections to articles exist but are of such poor quality they add nothing to this piece. ?

   There's no article on "screens passage", it's a redirect to Great Hall, which doesn't add to our understanding of Little Moreton Hall. "Wood panelling" seems self-evident to me, and not worth a wikilink. Similary "wood panelling" is a redirect to a rather useless (in this context) article on panelling, so again not worth a link. George Ponderevo (talk) 21:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

2. the Parlour --> the parlour

   It's called "the Parlour" in the sources. George Ponderevo (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

3. A private staircase between the Parlour - capitalisation issue, if it is a parlour and a withdrawing room no caps, but if it is a title caps OK. Prev sentence announces this is called the Little Parlour.

   It says it was called the Little Parlour in the 17th century, not that it's called the Little Parlour today. The capitalisation (Parlour, Withdrawing Room) is correct as far as I'm concerned, and is consistent with what is used in the sources. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

4. Five oak-framed bins inside may have held barley for the Brew-house, which is now used as a toilet block. Unsure- it sounds as it the bins are now used as a toilet block. Should the comma go? Should which is go?

   Don't agree, looks fine to me. George Ponderevo (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

First floor

1. The first-floor landing--> A first-floor landing ?
2. consoles - an interesting use of this word. A general reader would associate this with a type of table. The other use would be the pendentive filling where a round headed window was inserted in a rectangular opening, a spandral- should it be written 'consoles (corbels)'?

   "Console" is the word used by the source, and although I've wikilinked it to corbel it's not quite the same thing, as corbels are usually made of stone or brick. My dictionary defines "console" as "an ornamental bracket, esp. one used to support a wall, fixture, bust etc.", so I don't think the use of the term is in any way unusual. George Ponderevo (talk) 20:44, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

3. The first floor rooms in the east wing and most of the west wing are not open to the public, having been converted into accommodation for the National Trust staff who live on site.-- this is for the guidebook not an encyclopedia

   It explains why very few of the first-floor rooms are open to the public, so I think it's relevant. And I struggling to see how your comment here is consistent with asking for more details on the modifications made to the house to provide this accommodation. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

4. as a "sanctuary from the fun and games", was reference required?

   It's cited at the end of the paragraph, but presumably you'd like to see a citation directly after the quotation, so I've duplicated it there. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Contents

1. Except for those pieces, and a collection of 17th-century pewter tableware in a showcase in the west wall of the Great Hall, the house is otherwise displayed with bare rooms. Guidebook speak

   I don't think I agree, but perhaps MarchOrDie will have an opinion on this. That the rooms are bare is, I think, a significant feature, as most other National Trust houses are furnished. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Gardens and estate

1. Above I suggested that the para about the moat should be moved here. Comparing with Bramall hall LMH is light and descriptions of the topography- what is the name of the stream that fills the moat, and gave the water head for the mills? Where did the tailrace drain?

   The paragraph about the moat is where it is to explain the topology of where and how the house is sited, so I'm firmly of the opinion that it should remain where it is. I've found no information on the stream that fed the ponds used to power the mills, which are obviously long gone. I must admit to wondering myself though where the water for the moat comes from, so I'll see if I can find anything on that. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

   The moat isn't filled by any stream, it's just the natural water below the surface of the marshy land. The moat is consistently referred to as "waterlogged" as a result, which I've added. I don't see the relevance of the names of the stream(s) that fed the two now long-gone pools. George Ponderevo (talk) 00:27, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

2. The contours of the pond used to provide power --> The contours of the pool used to power-- as, the Cheshire dialect word for a mill lodge appears to have been pool, see Poynton Pool etc I have no parallel to suggest that pond was a synonym, I have heard it being used to refer to a natural waterbody- or an artificial one used to raise fish.(actually can't not find other references to this-may be wrong!) The pool created a head of water that could be used to power a waterwheel- it was a source of energy for a watermill.

   I'm quite happy to change "pond" for "pool", particularly as on checking my sources again I find that the body of water used to drive the water-powered hammers was called Smithy Pool. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:42, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

3. Water powered hammers -wlink to Trip hammer

   It was already linked in the lead, but I've now repeated the link here, which i think is OK. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Present day

1. There is scope here to add information about how the NT uses LMH and how adaptations have been made to provide staff accommodation and toilet facilities, and what and how it chooses to display artefacts.

   I'm not aware of any published information on the modifications made to provide accommodation for staff who live on -site, and I'm not sure what more could be said than is already said. The toilet facities in the converted Brew-house are already explicitly mentioned in the Ground floor section and shown on the map, as is the gift shop and restaurant in the converted east range. As for the artefacts, there are only four, as the article explains in the Contents section: the refectory table, chest of cupboards and pewter in the Great Hall and the round table in the Parlour. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

That concludes my sequential reading of the article- which is a bloody good read- and already was before I started. My two enduring niggles are the inaccurate fluff in the first sentence of the House section, and ensuring that everything mentioned is locatable on the diagram. --ClemRutter (talk) 11:44, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I like the compass north- looks good. ClemRutter (talk) 01:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with you about the "fluff", but I'll wait and see what MarchOrDie thinks before coming to a final conclusion. I've added a compass needle to the ground-floor plan, so there can be no doubt which is the north, south range etc. Most of your other points I think have now been dealt with or responded to where I don't agree, but I'll take another look through later to make certain. George Ponderevo (talk) 20:18, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• I implemented what I think of as a compromise on the historical periods issue. Can you gentlemen live with it? I am neutral on the capitalisation issue, being able to see both sides of the argument. On the map issue, as I said, I am with George in thinking the key currently provided in the article is adequate. --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

  Sorry, I didn't like it. It's perfectly clear to me that what's being described is historical periods, not architectural styles, and as I pointed out above, pre-Renaissance and so on are terms explicitly used by Pevsner. But nobody is suggesting that there is a pre-Renaissance style of architecture. George Ponderevo (talk) 21:08, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

  Pevsner is iconic, but can be internally inconsistent and makes the occasional hyperbolic literary flourishes that are plain stupid. Here he was just plain wrong. Look at the difficulty you had in wikilinking the assertion The 100-year construction of Little Moreton Hall spanned the period of the pre-], post-Reformation, ], pre-] and Renaissance. Three out of five --two of which refer to the succeeding period, and one linked to an architectural period! If you wish to include controversial material- do it as an attributed quote.

  The architectural historian Niklaus Pevsner opined that "The 100-year construction of Little Moreton Hall spanned the period of the pre-Reformation, post-Reformation, Elizabethan, pre-Renaissance and Renaissance, but except for some Renaissance decoration such as the motifs on the gatehouse, and Elizabethan fireplaces, the house is resolutely medieval in design."

  However that is a very inelegant way to start the most important section in the article. I would suggest that Malleus's sentence should be used first- giving

The house is resolutely medieval in design: part of the house's interest is that it was built over a period of 100 years, and thus contains elements of many architectural styles, ranging from medieval to Elizabethan. The architectural historian Niklaus Pevsner opined that the construction of Little Moreton Hall spanned the period of the pre-Reformation, post-Reformation, Elizabethan, pre-Renaissance and Renaissance Except for some Renaissance decoration such as the motifs on the gatehouse, and Elizabethan fireplaces, the house remains medieval in design.

ClemRutter (talk) 01:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

(enough for tonight- till tomorrow)ClemRutter (talk) 01:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

But the house doesn't contain elements of many architectural styles. To quote Pevsner again: "But in spite of some Renaissance decoration and some Elizabethan fireplaces, it is ridiculous to speak of Renaissance in a house which structurally and in the visual consequences of its structure is so entirely in the medieval tradition." We need to find a mutually agreeable form of words making the essential point that Little Moreton Hall was old-fashioned even its own time. I've got no investment in terms such as "pre-Renaissance", so why don't we simplify the whole thing and make the essential point more clearly? I suggest something along the lines of

The 100-year construction of Little Moreton Hall coincided with the English Renaissance, but except for some Renaissance decoration such as the motifs on the gatehouse and Elizabethan fireplaces, the house is resolutely medieval in design.

That gets across all I wanted to say. George Ponderevo (talk) 03:48, 24 November 2012 (UTC)